Elektron-Users

woah. this is indeed a very interesting thread. it has given me a wicked headache, spawned paranormal activity in my bedroom, and been otherwise, very stimulating... i'm at a bit of a loss for words, but i have a few questions - the initial tests were done using a md clocked from a mpc3k? has anyone run the same test in reverse order? i remember reading that someone ran both side by side on internal clocks, but i don't recall seeing an md master mpc slave test, and i'm just morbidly curious about those results.

cheers!

rudebop wrote:

innerclock wrote:
that it has to sort out the slop and if anyone can lead the way - it's these guys.

Best as always - David
www.innerclocksystems.com


come on... elektron makes nice freaky machines but in relation to others they are not that ahead.. its faster than programming a nordmodular or reaktor or max msp...but its the same world of sounds...

so wehn you want to go for tight timing i suggest that you have a look to the more professional eqipment of the above mentioned branches...

Regarding product design elektron shines most on a optical side..
all the user interface design is not really 100% thought thru..
its not bad also..but many inconsistencys.. unlogical things... like sharing
pattern/song button with the global setup and kit with songsetup...
The songmode nobody uses i know is the only direkt acces function on the whole machine... ... The patern/sample /kit safe operations are deeply quirky..a machine wher you constantly loose work..and the most inferior sound engine timing on the market...

THe MD is a percussion syntheziser... its great for that..but its not the very best drum machine...

If you after rocksolid timing you should work DAW internal...the mixup of systems allways causes problems..midiclocking works with an atari or mpc but not with modern DAW?s...

Logic for example fucked the good OSX timing...its as bad as it was regarding clockjitter in the 90?s... dont ask me why...
inbetween it was fine..the clock very precise..but now we have 1,5 ms again...

So its actually not the trend to deliver timing precission to the hardware world from DAW side....why should equipment that is supposed to run as slave have a better timing than the external clock prvides...

Best is to give up on hardware and work only wih the computer ..that the message that is in this development


:-o

Guys - come on - you are missing the wood for the trees here. One of the reasons we have all been encouraged to go DAW to get good timing is precisely because you can't get good hardware clock/event/sync/timing in modern hardware - and you certainly can't get good tempo/clock/event sync between Windows/OS-X and external hardware - Period. Midi clock via USB is at best a nice bowl of custard. Come on people - have a good listen! I for one refuse mix with a god damn mouse. I use a big Analogue Console with faders I can move with my hands - 2 at a time if I wish and Aux sends that don't have 4ms latency by the time my signal comes back from my effects rack. I say again at the risk of repeating myself - improving sequencer tempo/event/clock precision IS POSSIBLE and IMPORTANT. We have existing older technology that proves it.

I bought my SPS-1 because I DIDN'T WANT TO SEQUENCE IN PRO-TOOLS! Are you guys telling me ' oh well - that's just the way it is these days?' ? Are you telling me I should use a shitty crack of Battery or Reason - or worse sample up the SPS-1 and waste my life moving shit around with a mouse? That's not fun and it's not making music in my book either. That's insane and pissweak - sorry but I can't believe the lack of commitment to something so fundamentally important by a group of people with obviously good enough ears to purchase an SPS-1 in the first place.

Waiting for your responses - David

Hey Kim - thanks for checking it - yes it is an interesting thread mainly because it gets down to a fundamental issue in music making. Initial test on my site have nothing to do with Sync - although that is of course valid in its own right. My very first test was done this way though - 3K master/MD Slave and vica versa. I thought the slop I could hear was just a constant value start time offset which I could fix another way. What I found was indeed a 3ms start offset but far worse was the rough MD push/pull on top of the offset. I even tried flipping it round - MD master/MPC Slave - same result - MPC holds lock tight/MD has the same push/pull event slop. Hence my test page and this thread. So - Sync is important but far secondary to getting a box to internally be tempo/event precise in the first place - if it can't do that - all the offsetting in the world still means your beats sound soggy.

regards - David.

Maybe I'm crazy but I think I'm going to put a time limit on having this issue at least acknowledged by the fine folks at Elektron and then a time limit on having this resolved - if not in an OS Update [or if hardware design makes that impossible] then in a new (improved) version of the SPS-1. I've emailed Daniel and the Support crew and informed them of this link so they will I'm sure get a handle on the issues on hand. I don't particularly want to buy an expensive hardware modular synth and drive it with vintage sequencers to get close to what I know the MD SPS-1 can achieve if they fixed it's internal step/clock stability but I refuse to put up with it the way it is. And I'm not buying Battery or G2 or Max/MSP however funky they are. So - I'm buying some nice rope today instead and maybe in a few weeks time I'll take some nice photos of it on the bottom of Sydney Harbor while I'm doing a spot of fishing and listening to the local Indian Minor Birds doing their fabulous 'clk - clk -clk - clk' birdcall - now they can keep time!

Regards as always - David

David, I think it's good that you're raising these issues but I also think you might be getting a little obsessive here. I'd like to see the timing of the MD improved, but, in the meantime, lots of people have made music I enjoy with the MD in its current state and I personally find it an inspiring and fun instrument to play. I bought it and use it not because I thought it had exceptionally tight timing but because it adds something valuable to my music I haven't found in other tools.

Other tools put other obstacles in the way of creativity so I guess you just have to pick your poisons. Personally I can't imagine switching back to 90's era midi gear or an all-cv analog rig. Both would have a much more negative impact on my music than the timing issues of the MD do.

kuniklo wrote:
David, I think it's good that you're raising these issues but I also think you might be getting a little obsessive here. I'd like to see the timing of the MD improved, but, in the meantime, lots of people have made music I enjoy with the MD in its current state and I personally find it an inspiring and fun instrument to play. I bought it and use it not because I thought it had exceptionally tight timing but because it adds something valuable to my music I haven't found in other tools.

Other tools put other obstacles in the way of creativity so I guess you just have to pick your poisons. Personally I can't imagine switching back to 90's era midi gear or an all-cv analog rig. Both would have a much more negative impact on my music than the timing issues of the MD do.

Hi Kuniklo - partly my stance is devils advocate and partly because I do obviously think it is worth fixing. Yes it adds value as it is and yes you can make music with the MD as it stands now - as I've said before - I can have fun making music with two sticks and some bottle caps if I wish for free if I want to - what I am trying to say (again) is that improving this should be a priority not an option and that it will make a difference overall. The reason I'm barking up Elektron's tree is because I believe they (possibly more than any other current sequencer designer) understand this concept and have the commitment and vision to lead the way back/forward to tighter timing. The fact that they only produce 2 very high quality sequencing products means their code/R&R teams have more time/focus to look at this and make it a valid priority in their design.

I don't want to go back 20 years either but none of us would have to consider it if this issue was taken as seriously by sequencer users/designers as say Apogee/Prism/Drawmer user/designers take Word Clock jitter stability in digital audio.

Without pressure - nothing changes.

Regards - David.

By all means put pressure on them. I'd like to see this improved too. However, I intend to go on enjoying making music with the MD in the meantime.

kuniklo wrote:
By all means put pressure on them. I'd like to see this improved too. However, I intend to go on enjoying making music with the MD in the meantime.

Kuniklo - as I am sure I will too! Again - it's not personal - and I don't want anyone to not enjoy music making in any form at all. If it doesn't bother you then it won't matter if it's fixed or not but over ten years and more of working with music machines and people there is more than enough evidence to prove that sequencer tempo/clock/event stability does have an impact on the way we feel, respond, interact and play with music and in 2007 it is long overdue that this was acknowledged and rectified by our product designers.


Regards - David.

teknobryan wrote:
so stuff made completely in software has a 100% steady clock? So by your logic that stuff should "groove" better.

Not necessarily - if it's generating audio in real-time you have one set of issues - if you render it and sample accurate re-align it to exact tempo sample markers and divisions then yes it's as accurate as your word clock crystal.

Would anyone want to actually do this by choice? Please tell me this isn't true?

Even if you spend three weeks surgically doing this and then you want to play a mad free form/unquantized synth solo over the top with a soft-synth - you can't really get there because your dealing with 5ms average latency anyway which is going to rhythmically mess with how you play anyway.

So - you play it in rough and fix it with the mouse - right?

Tell me which bit is fun in all of this?

Regards David.